Skeletal Wyverns: 1.3 Crimsons/kill. Food for thought.

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Skeletal Wyverns: 1.3 Crimsons/kill. Food for thought.

Postby Lord Klotski » Tue Apr 22, 2008 1:32 am

Over the course of the last few months I've been collecting data on the charm drops of many monsters, in an effort to find the "best charm dropper". Unlike those who will acquiesce to kill thousands of waterfiends with no hope of getting any rare drops, I prefer to fight monsters that have interesting drops (and preferably rare, expensive ones).

What I did do was take samples of monsters, mostly from slayer assignments, trying to find a monster that I could kill with my stringent requirements (specifically, great charm drops and great "other drops"). I then grouped them by charms per kill, (i.e. gold, green, crimson, and blue were recorded separately), and then gave the monster a total "score" based on a heuristic: Gold got 1.3 points, Green gets 1.75, Crimson 4.4, and Blue 8.8. These seemingly arbitrary values were taken from the following formula:

Charm Value * Summoning Level ~= XP per charm

This deals with the issue that some charms are worth more than other charms (and even better...quantifies it). Obviously some monsters will take longer to kill than others, so my "score" gets divided by the time in seconds that it takes to kill the monster.

For reference, my scores for the following creatures are as follows (and the time taken to kill them is in brackets). Note that all "kill times" have bank time built in (but, of course, all are approximations somewhat):
1) Bork(300 seconds) - 939.60
2) Waterfiend(40 seconds) - 347.38
3) Skeletal Wyvern(90 seconds) - 272.47
4) Black Demon (Chaos Tunnels) (40 seconds) - 256.72
5) Dust Devil (30 seconds) - 199.85

*With a full set of verac armour and constant piety, or full dharok and constant piety, my waterfiend killing time drops to around 35 seconds.

Here on out is where I could use some help.

I want to kill a wyvern faster than 90 seconds. Much faster. My current method is to use a whip, mind shield, and verac armour with constant piety. If I could bring the time down to an average of 70 seconds, then they would be approximately equal to waterfiends in terms of charm usefulness per hour, and I like visage hunting :). I do know that with a familiar such as a terrorbird or war tortoise I could extend my trips (currently I am slowed down by my habit of banking all my bones, and my other habit of running out of food), but that is not enough. I want to use a cannon there, and I want to use it well.

For the record, I argue that a cannon is definitely worth bringing to the wyverns. My argument goes as follows: Let us suppose that the chance of obtaining a draconic visage is not worse than 1/5000, the cost of a cannonball is 180 gp per, and that the visage is worth (again, for arguments sake) 22M. This means that any additional kill has 4400 gp worth of "visage", equivalent to 24 cannonballs. I believe that 24 cannonballs should be sufficient to kill a wyvern, so I pick up the wyvern bones (1.6k, last time I checked), charms, other drops, and ranged xp essentially for free. Of course, I've never tried a cannon there , so I may be wrong about the number of cannonballs...and of course, nobody really knows the drop rate of a visage :D.

In essence, I want to know two things. Firstly, I've seen some technique on these boards of pros like Mochag who put these cannon-double-hit pictures up. Those look impressive :). Could I see one on a wyvern? (If one was posted, please forgive my ignorance, and provide a link to the appropriate post). Secondly, I would like to know, from anyone that has used a cannon there, approximately how effective they are (and whether they would take more, less, or about 24 cannonballs to kill).

Oh, and to Qeltar's blanket statement that "Wyverns = Burthorpe", it might be easily surmised from this post that I intend to out-do his own charm-collecting techniques with these "Burthorpable monsters". Whether I am successful or not in beating waterfiends and power-dharoking will be interesting, but I *am* convinced that the charm drops from these are worth some thought.
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Skeletal Wyverns: 1.3 Crimsons/kill. Food for thought.

Postby tlin » Tue Apr 22, 2008 3:07 am

This doesn't answer your question about Skeletal Wyverns, but if you're interested in both charms and the possibility of a Visage drop, maybe you should consider the King Black Dragon. If you're maxed he's easy to solo, Lava Titan (level 83 summoning) will teleport you there (or Ice Plateau teleport), and Unicorn (level 88 summoning) can help you stay there longer.
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Postby dandonio » Tue Apr 22, 2008 4:41 am

A BoB would be more handy at the KBD, health isn't that much of an issue if u pick up hides & bones.
If you have 96 magic u could use ghorrock telly, then you're located 2 clicks to the west of the entrance.

I'll keep an eye out for good charm droppers, if they seem good I'll use that formula thingie on them.


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Postby tlin » Tue Apr 22, 2008 4:55 am

dandonio wrote:A forager would be more handy at the KBD, health isn't that much of an issue if u pick up hides & bones.
If you have 96 magic u could use ghorrock telly, then you're located 2 clicks to the west of the entrance.

I'll keep an eye out for good charm droppers, if they seem good I'll use that formula thingie on them.

By Forager do you mean like Macaw? I think health is still an issue because if you're soloing, I don't think a full inventory of shark is enough to turn into a full inventory of hides and bones.
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Postby dandonio » Tue Apr 22, 2008 5:00 am

woops i meant beast of burden :wink: Well you get around 2 hides + 1 'unique' item every time you kill the kbd, so killing him like 7 times is enough, I mean just bring a beast of burden, fill it with sharks and just store hides & bones etc. in it afterwards. then killing it a couple of more times won't be that hard.
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Of beautiful birds in circling flight,
I am the starshine of the night.
I am in the flowers that bloom,
I am in a quiet room.
I am in the birds that sing,
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Skeletal Wyverns: 1.3 Crimsons/kill. Food for thought.

Postby Edofighter » Tue Apr 22, 2008 6:58 am

This is very interesting. I myself have no experience with this monster, as it is regarded as tedious and unrewarding. However, if it is just as good as the waterfiends but even gives you money if you stick with it, it is very worth consdering for charm collecting definitely.

On another note, slightly off topic: I'm rewriting my guide on collecting charms to include 11 sections to cover all other things needed to know for training, essentially making it into a guide about everything to do with training summoning. I haven't got much experience with collecting charms though, except for thieving them, and I was planning on making a thread here and testing monsters out myself. Do you have more of that data? I'm especially interested in the best monsters for collecting gold charms, but any information about the best green or blue charm dropping monsters is welcome too. If you want to, you can write out that section yourself and get all the credit, as you obviously have more experience, but that would cost you some time so any help would be welcome. Thanks in advance :D

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Postby Lord Klotski » Tue Apr 22, 2008 9:14 am

For the record gentlemen...

Continuing my table of scores:
9) King Black Dragon - 165.65

I don't doubt that he is fun to kill, and with my tortoise 10 kills isn't too hard (at 85 range), but I'm trying to kill wyverns on this thread :). Why? Because they are number 3, not number 9 on my little list.

Incidentally, if jagex knew how to code, I could take the canoes to the KBD, with my familiar in tow, and only be slightly slower than the lava titan. As it is, I have to switch to lunar to take a beast of burden in any reasonable time-frame, as the canoes used to glitch up and make the familiars last forever. Silly me - I reported that bug, so now the fix is straightforward - no familiars on canoes...

And yeah, I have way more of that data edofighter. When I get it into a readable format, I'll send it to you or something - I don't have any of the "great" gold charm droppers on it, per se - No moss giants, Ice giants, etc...

But please, if we could stay on topic, I'd appreciate it.
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Postby ikraz55 » Tue Apr 22, 2008 11:07 am

Locust Riders (scabarites for slayer) in the dungeon from "Contact" drop crimson charms very often and can be cannoned in multicombat. During one task, I managed to break even from drops even with cannon+pray pots the entire time. The main drawback is that they hit very hard, and you get attacked with mage+melee+range when you leave the safespot.
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Postby arigold16 » Tue Apr 22, 2008 11:54 am

Lord Klotski wrote:...

What I did do was take samples of monsters, mostly from slayer assignments, trying to find a monster that I could kill with my stringent requirements (specifically, great charm drops and great "other drops"). I then grouped them by charms per kill, (i.e. gold, green, crimson, and blue were recorded separately), and then gave the monster a total "score" based on a heuristic: Gold got 1.3 points, Green gets 1.75, Crimson 4.4, and Blue 8.8. These seemingly arbitrary values were taken from the following formula:

Charm Value * Summoning Level ~= XP per charm

This deals with the issue that some charms are worth more than other charms (and even better...quantifies it). Obviously some monsters will take longer to kill than others, so my "score" gets divided by the time in seconds that it takes to kill the monster.

For reference, my scores for the following creatures are as follows (and the time taken to kill them is in brackets). Note that all "kill times" have bank time built in (but, of course, all are approximations somewhat):
1) Bork(300 seconds) - 939.60
2) Waterfiend(40 seconds) - 347.38
3) Skeletal Wyvern(90 seconds) - 272.47
4) Black Demon (Chaos Tunnels) (40 seconds) - 256.72
5) Dust Devil (30 seconds) - 199.85

...


I'm confused how you are reaching these scores. When you assign points per charm, is that charms per some number of kills? Otherwise, I'm having trouble seeing how the 1.3, 1.75, 4.4 and 8.8 per charm, divided by the time in seconds for the kill, can translate into the scores you list, Ex. If you had divided Bork's score by 300, that means his raw score was 281,880. Thats 32,031 times the 8.8 that you gave to the highest charms. Maybe the 281k number was an estimated value of 3k Bork kills? Thats all I can come up with off the top of my head that comes close to explaining it.

I'm sure there is some other factor at work in the formula that you are using, but could you tell us the full formula (if you don't mind) so that we can better understand what the results are telling us?
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Postby Blimpyboy2 » Tue Apr 22, 2008 12:45 pm

More power to you if you can find a justification for killing skeletal wyverns. I'm just spit-balling here, but have you tried enchanted ruby/diamond bolts on em?
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Postby lebst » Tue Apr 22, 2008 1:11 pm

I more enjoy ranging wyverns from the safe spot. Last trip I came out with granite legs and 40+ crimsons, though it's not a very fast way to kill it's quite enjoyable.

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Postby mochag13 » Tue Apr 22, 2008 1:16 pm

I cannot post a new picture because I have sold off all of my combat gear including my cannon.

I will say this, it takes far less than 24 shots per kill if you are doing it right. Just not sure why you think these have any value other than the rarest drops.

Killing wyverns effectively with cannon is no easy task, it is more difficult than killing metal dragons and cannot be done "safely" as you will take damage and become frozen randomly which interferes with the ability to set up the next target and causes stray fire.
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Postby ferrariman12 » Tue Apr 22, 2008 4:54 pm

mochag13 wrote:I cannot post a new picture because I have sold off all of my combat gear including my cannon.

I will say this, it takes far less than 24 shots per kill if you are doing it right. Just not sure why you think these have any value other than the rarest drops.

Killing wyverns effectively with cannon is no easy task, it is more difficult than killing metal dragons and cannot be done "safely" as you will take damage and become frozen randomly which interferes with the ability to set up the next target and causes stray fire.

Ah, sounds like a challenge ;)

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Postby Lord Klotski » Tue Apr 22, 2008 10:06 pm

All right, I'll post the whole formula :)

I take, say, 100 monster kills. Suppose the charm drops are 25 gold, 25 green, 25 crimson, and 25 blue. I calculate the usefulness as 25*1.3 + 25*25*1.75 + 25*4.4 + 25*8.8. This number is then divided by the 100 kills, to give units of "usefulness per kill". This doesn't do much for me when trying to compare two different monsters, so I need to change the units to time. I divide by the time taken in seconds to kill the monster (units of "seconds per kill"), so my new units now are "usefulness per second". These numbers were all tiny, so I multiplied by 3600 to get finally, units of "usefulness per hour". (Man, Dimensional Analysis from Physics is just haunting me today). An example is slightly later in this post.

It is worth noting that these units have a second important application: summoning XP/hr. Recalling from my first post that "usefulness" was derived from a heuristic relating charm type to XP and summoning level, it is enough to multiply your summoning level by the "usefulness" to get summoning XP/hr. In more straightforward terms: XP/hr = Usefulness/hr * Summoning Level. Obviously , if you use charms to make familiars below your current summoning level, you will get less xp, so this result is at best a ballpark...but it's pretty good.

An Example of Calculating Usefulness/hr: Bork drops 2 green, 7 crimson, and 5 blue. He takes 300 seconds. His usefulness per 1 kill is 78.3 (2*1.75 + 7*4.4 + 5*8.8, all divided by the number of kills, which in this case is 1), usefulness per second is 78.3/300, and usefulness per hour is 939.6.

An Example of Calculating Approximate Summoning XP/hr: My summoning Level is 78. When I kill a Mith Dragon, the Usefulness/hr is 160.53 (Too much lag on the servers these days to use v+piety, although I have used that method to great success). 78*160.53 is about 12521 XP/hr. They mainly drop green charms, and I make giant ents with them, so I won't be too far off. How far off, exactly? Lets see...

Using too much bloody math and linear interpolation to calculate relatively exact XP/hr: My summoning Level is still 78. I make: Gold - spirit terrorbirds (52), Green - giant ents (78), Granite lobs(74), and Blue - Addy Minotaurs (76). About 17% of the usefulness (from Mith dragons) comes from Gold, 41% from Green, 35% from Crimson, and 7% from blue. Using linear interpolation, we calculate my summoning level to be a practical .17*52 + .41*78 + .35*74 + .07*76 = 72.04. Using the formula from above, we have Usefulness / hr * 72.04 = 11565 XP/hr. The "error" here is less than 10%, mostly due to the fact that miths are a high gold dropper (over 1 gold charm per kill, on average) and, well, I don't make many polar bears :-(. Note also that the "percentage of usefulness" is calculated on a per-monster basis, and requires the original data...

I realize that there is a fair bit of text here, and I do hope that with careful reading it should give you a very good idea what my spreadsheet entails without me actually posting the whole thing. I also realize that it's lengthy and most likely poorly written, so I'll be more than happy to explain any part of it in further detail upon request. Lastly, if there is some interest in the ability to calculate ball-park Summoning XP/hr from various monsters, I could post the Usefulness/hr statistics for monsters that I've collected charms for.

Mochag - thanks. Perhaps I will have to settle for double-hitting half of the time (i.e. alternating between two wyverns). Either way, knowing that I'm using fewer than 24 cannonballs per kill is extremely reassuring. The value that I see in the wyverns is straightforward: Visage, Granite Legs, Crimson Charms (en masse), and the 100% drop of Wyvern bones. Oh, and range xp. :)

Very shortly I will test out this method. Stay tuned for more lengthy posts, filled with math that you never wanted to see...maybe I'll even break out calculus for my next trick :D

Oh, and for anyone that read my signature and wonders whether I keep to its profound wisdom...I find it impossible to log in simultaneously to truthscape and runescape. Heh.
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With max hit 'm', accuracy 'a', and monster HP 'x', this gives the expected number of hits to kill the monster :)

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Postby arigold16 » Tue Apr 22, 2008 10:30 pm

Ahhh the multiple is 3600... I was sooo close with 3000 :wink: .

Thanks for the explanation, it was very helpful and more than sufficient to let me know what was going on. I really like this method and it definitely would be nice to see some more of the numbers for some other critters.
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Postby mochag13 » Tue Apr 22, 2008 11:53 pm

The value that I see in the wyverns is straightforward: Visage, Granite Legs, Crimson Charms (en masse), and the 100% drop of Wyvern bones. Oh, and range xp.


The problem I see with that is time. I don't think you realize just how effective a tool the cannon is :lol:

The problem is exactly that. It's too good. If you do not have the patience to run back and forth to a bank (presumably you intend on recovering your expenses by selling bones) every few minutes, then I still don't see the value in it.

Right when the visage came about, I decided to avoid the crowds and set up camp there. Barely anyone could or would kill Wyverns and I thought it was as good a time as any to further develop my techniques.

Initially I did gather the bones to market them but soon that just because too troublesome for my tastes. Instead I opted to bury those bones. The regular drops do not come remotely close to covering the costs of running the cannon full time. It took me well over 30 hours before I saw my first granite leg drop and back then it barely covered my costs. Now granite legs are significantly cheaper. Visage is a pipe dream for me. You may be far luckier and I wish you all the luck in the world.

I may post a picture of the sweet spot I use. I use the spot specifically because, like metal dragons, these have a magic based attack that attacks from a distance. Using terrain to hide behind will essentially lure them to you when they have no line of sight. The technique calls for you to use a duck and hide manuever to lure them into the cannons sweet spot. It is far easier to do at metal dragons. This place requires more finesse.
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Postby Lord Klotski » Wed Apr 23, 2008 12:06 am

My theory was that every 5000 kills or so, a visage would cover my costs :D

I'll probably bring a beast of burden, to take back more bones, and I value crimson charms extremely high, so I will most likely find it very worthwhile even if I do end up burying a few bones.

Arigold - Good guess :). 3600 has more meaning than 3000, according to my method, but yeah, my original idea was to just multiply it by "something" so that all the numbers I was comparing werent waaaaaaay less than 1 :-). I'll post those values in a bit.
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With max hit 'm', accuracy 'a', and monster HP 'x', this gives the expected number of hits to kill the monster :)

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Postby Lord Klotski » Wed Apr 23, 2008 12:31 am

If apropos, I will post this in a new thread. If not...then I won't. Rounded to a single number for convenience. Numbers subject to change depending on your ability to kill more quickly/slowly than me. I'm currently working on the new quest, so I'll keep this list straightforward. A much more detailed list may follow, perhaps tomorrow.

1) Bork - 940
2) Waterfiend - 347
3) Wyvern - 272
4) Black Demon - 257
5) Dust Devil - 200
6) Kalphite Guardian - 189
7) Kalphite Soldier - 184
8) Greater Demon - 172
9) Fire Giant - 171
10) King Black Dragon - 166 (yeah, I put 9 before. Sue me :D)
11) Mithril Dragon - 161
12) Steel Dragon - 152 (Note that I also fight these with piety, exclusively on slayer assignments so I get a black mask bonus also...)
13) HellHound - 140
14) Black Dragon - 138 (Also fought with piety)
15) Green Dragon - 136 (You guessed it...piety :D. Verac armour, whip and anti-fire shield, I fight in the chaos tunnels then tele to house to recharge pray. Piety against these for me is pretty much free)
16) Infernal Mage - 132
17) Iron Dragon - 130 (It's a dragon....piety)
18) Bloodveld - 125 (The new ones look totally hardcore, I killed one and got a blue charm :). Gotta check those out , and break out the cannon perhaps...)
19) Dagganoth - 115 (These are the ones that Qeltar likes to power-dharok on, I believe. I just can't get the hang of it, obviously...though I did hit a 75 :D)
20) Nechrayel - 112 (With red chins, these could be much faster...again, my dharoks seemed not much faster than a whip)
21) Aberrant Specter - 111 (Fair few blues from these, and excellent other drops)
22) Gargoyle - 107 (I HATE THESE)
23) Brine Rat - 103 (Gold charms en masse, and very fast to kill, with edible noted secondary drops)
24) Monk of Zamorak (Lvl 45, in the chaos tunnels) - 99
25) Jelly - 65

Any monster that did not have a sufficient sample size was excluded. I should fight giant rock crabs using Qeltar's suggested method of the black salamander...but I don't like gold charms. Either way, with my sample size of 12, likely before the nerf, they ranked between Dusties and the Kalphites. Interpret that as you will...
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With max hit 'm', accuracy 'a', and monster HP 'x', this gives the expected number of hits to kill the monster :)

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Postby mochag13 » Wed Apr 23, 2008 1:02 am

I almost got killed trying to get this screenshot lol

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I forgot that you needed elemental (or mind) shield and I barely made it out alive! That wyvern that looks like it's about to attack, hit a 48 with that shot and froze me in place. I made a run for the cavern door as soon as I thawed out.

The "X" marks the spot I set up cannon in.

The red arrows indicate the spots to duck behind depending on which Wyvern is targetting you.

Moving them into place is fairly difficult and even more difficult to explain. I recomend just expirimenting with both cannon placement and npc placement until you figure out where that double shot spot is. Then it's a matter of ducking behind the stalagmites to manuever the wyvern into that desired spot. That takes practice as well. But with enough, you will be able to do it nearly all the time.
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Postby ikraz55 » Wed Apr 23, 2008 2:03 am

What score would you give rock lobsters? (with ice burst)
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